00 Buck Anomaly

By-The-Basic-Book and High Tech, a 2-3/4" 12ga 00 Buck round flings 9 round lead balls doing 1d+1 pi each out to 40/800.

Looking up a typical loading I get 9 lead balls at 1,325 feet per second and Gun Stats calculating a "shotshell" gets 1d pi each out to 40/800.

So far so good, just a little less damage.

Fire a single .33 caliber ball at 1,325 fps from a smoothbore and you get 2d pi out to 60/700.

Oops.

The calculation for the single ball is closer to what the magazines writing about shotguns says about performance because they equated .36 cap and ball pistols to 000 Buck. 

After A Point

Doing the Gun Stats math on 12ga 2-3/4" shotgun ammo.

It doesn't quite match the Basic Set or High Tech stats.

One load of 00 buck matches exactly, most don't.  The 1,325 fps stuff gets 1d pi instead of 1d+1 pi.  1,600 fps gets it to 1d+1 pi, but that's a single Hornady loading. 

But once you do #2 birdshot, the damage stays 1d-5(0.5) pi-, you just get more pellets and a higher chance to hit, until #9 birdshot when it changes to 1d-5(0.2) pi-.

I will probably calculate all of the shot sizes because you lose range with every decrease in shot size.

00 Buck is 40/800 for range.  #4 birdshot is 16/312.

Steel shot doesn't do less damage than lead, or lose range, but you get more pellets. 

Not Really A Shotgunner

I own two 12ga shotguns because I feel that a gun-owner should own a shotgun.

I used to shoot trap and field, even getting good at it, but I don't really shoot shot.

It extends to GURPS characters too.

Only six instances of carrying a shotgun in more than a hundred characters.  One of them is carrying one she can't really handle and got a quirk for choosing it.

Shotguns have less capacity, bulkier and heavier ammo than most other choices.

I prefer a rifle.

The GURPS rules back my prejudices. 

#4 Buck

Reading my most recent issue of Shooting Illustrated (Sep '25) and they have an article comparing 00 Buck to #4 Buck.

It's something I've already seen for GURPS.

SEALs In Vietnam gave us stats for #4 Buck because it was exceedingly popular in 'Nam with troops who toted a shotgun.

00 Buck is the GURPS 4e default damage for a shotgun; it does 1d+1 pi, 40/800.

The smaller pellets of #4 Buck do 1d(0.5) pi-, 30/600; but you get three times as many pellets (27 v 9).  That gives a better chance to hit.

At 15 yards vs average VC mook:

00 Buck from your Ithaca model 37 can bang out two shells per turn, slinging 18 pellets down-range.

With a skill of 12, -5 to hit for range, +4 for the number of pellets, net 11 to hit.

With a rcl of 1 that means two pellets will hit on an average roll and do 9 points of damage which is a major wound.

#4 Buck sends 54 pellets for a +6 and a net 13 to hit.

That means that 4 pellets hit on an average roll and will do, on average, just 5 points of damage.  Just barely a major wound.

This seems to agree with the conclusions in the article.

This GURPS!

Recoil Therapy

Got Dissapator Dottie and Lavender Linda zeroed today.

 

12 round confirmation of the zero at a mere 25 yards.  I'm reasonably happy with it considering how bad my eyes are and Dottie only has irons.

 

Linda was a bit more aggravating.  Got the irons dialed in, then matched the red-dot with the irons and the red dot shot 2" left of the irons.  Must be a goofy affect of the carry handle mount impinging on the sight picture or using both eyes with the red dot or something.

Dialed the red dot so it hit then confirmed the irons still worked.

Odd.  Never had this happen before.

Linda is going to get zeroed again, because she's obviously got a canted front sight, and I remember having to take extra care mounting the barrel last time, that I didn't remember to do this time when I was playing musical barrel swaps for pictures of various dissipator combinations.

Marv went to the adjacent range and zeroed his Kel Tec .410.  It really hated one brand of ammo, Best Performance Shotshell.  You know it's good when they don't even have a web page!

Non Video Version

To ghost load your Remington 870:

Load the magazine with as many rounds as you want with the action open.

Drop a round in the chamber.

Place a round on the elevator.

Push down on the round as you partially close the action to get it started.

Pust the elevator back up as you close the action the rest of the way so the nose of the round partially enters the magazine.

Viola!

I don't know if this works with other pump shotguns.

Ghost Loading

I never take a shotgun when making a character, but this is a neat trick that you'd have to show the GM the video for them to let it happen.

 

Update:  Hope everyone saw that, YouTube has decided that loading an extra round in your shotgun is violation of their terms.

Check Check Check

Thanks to Wollfe in the comments we know that I didn't quite get it right from what C&Rsenal showed.

The Winchester Model 1887 shotgun has a cartridge elevator akin to the Lebel.

You can load the tube with all five rounds, put a round on the elevator and pop a round in the chamber then close the action without stripping the round off the elevator.

That's a shots+2 action because a Lebel is shown that way too.

I needed to put an extended magazine on my 870 to get more than 5 rounds total!

JMB(PBUH)! for the win!

Reality Check

Thanks to C&Rsenal I now know that the capacity of the Winchester 1887 is different from what GURPS says.

The real gun holds 5 in the tube magazine and can have one in the chamber and one on the shell elevator.

That makes the shots 5+2.

Changes made to my consolidated chart.

Oops!

I misinterpreted it.

What you can do is load five in the tube, put one on the carrier then close the action, making it 5+1!

For both 10 and 12 gauge.

Quicker

When looking up loads for the M79 I was struck that a shotgun is a higher velocity gun.

12ga is about 1350 feet per second with #4 buckshot.

The M576 round is a mere 885 fps with the same shot.

12ga is firing 24 pellets instead of 20 as well.

I can see the argument for using a shotgun instead of the blooper for close in work.

#4 buck was used extensively in Vietnam.

#4 Buck

#4 Buck does 1d-1(0.5) pi- and gives 27 pellets in 12ga 2-3/4"  00 Buck does 1d pi and you get 9 pellets.  For the record, a .22LR from a pistol does 1d+1 pi-

Coincidentally, the M576 multi-purpose round for the 40mm grenade launcher also uses #4 buck, but just 20 pellets.  40x46mm is a much larger round than 12ga 2-3/4"!

Despite the low damage, it was, apparently, very popular with shotgunners in Vietnam.

The #4 gets a +5 to hit from one shot and +6 for two; 00 gets +2 for one shot and +4 for two due to the number of pellets flying.

More hits could mean more damage despite the halving of the damage after penetration.  For a single shot the same roll means 3 more pellets hit.

Range is kinda pathetic, so let's keep it to 20 yards, -6 to hit.

A skill 11 shooter will have a 7 chance to hit with a single round and 9 with the RoF of 2 of a pump shotgun shooting 00 buck.  On average, they're gonna miss with both.

The same shooter will have a 10 with a single round and 11 with two.  On average, they'll get one pellet to hit with one round and two with two.

Our grenadier gets a +4 to hit with his single M576 round and will likely be missing...

Hits do more damage than misses regardless.  (1 point or 3 points is more than zero).

If we let the enemy get much closer, like say, 7 yards... it's only -3 to hit.

That means rolls to hit of 10 and 12 for the 00 and the average roll will now land 1 or 3 hits.

#4 needs 13 and 14 to hit and will land 4 and 5 hits respectively.

40mm needs 12 so the average roll lands 3 hits.

00 buck will do (on average) 3.5 hits per round; so 3 or 10.

#4 buck will do (on average) 1.5 hits per round; so 6 or 7.

40mm does the same average damage so 4 points of damage from its three hits.

At longer ranges #4 is going to work better because you're going to be hitting more.

Slam Fire

This is really me writing it down so I can remember it later.

Normal rate of fire fore a pump shotgun in GURPS 4e is 2xn.

Guns like the Winchester 1897 and Model 12 don't have a trigger disconnector so they will fire just by pumping the action.

That's RoF 3xn.

It's in the description of the 1897 in High Tech 4e on page 105.

Neat!

I don't shotgun much so this innovation slipped past me.

Interia action:

Nifty.

Simple and elegant.

The place that introduced me to the idea was complaining about the price of such guns, so they must be expensive too.

Another Day Another Round

It's 4/10!

Bracing, don't you think?

GURPS Shotguns

All shotgun ammunition fires at nearly the same velocity.

That means a pellet of a given size is going to do the same damage regardless of gauge.  They will also have the same 1/2D and Max ranges.

What will matter after that is how many pellets.

00 Buck is the baseline pellet for GURPS shotguns, and most gauges smaller than 12 don't get a 00 option.

Check the ammo sellers.

.410 is the exception because you can get 000 loads.

Starting at #1 Buck, the pellets get pi-.

Many of the smaller rounds don't even get a slug option.

It makes it easy to spec out a new shotgun once you do the math for a given pellet.

Forgotten Weapon

 

OG Twilight: 2000 had the H&K CAWS.

In the original game it used standard shotgun ammo.

The CAWS program was long dead before the year 2000, it was dead before the Soviet Union went tits up and the Berlin Wall fell.

So I never included it in my GURPS conversion.

Still...

I've done some easy research and developed GURPS stats for it.

18.5x76mmB is the all brass round.  It will not fit in a normal 12ga shotgun.

However, it will accept normal 12ga ammunition.

There are three rounds in 18.5x76mmB, 000 Buck, tungsten pellets and flechettes.

The "full auto" rate of fire is a mere 4 shots per round, barely better than a semi-auto shotgun's 3.

The tungsten pellets hit pretty hard, 2d+2 pi, but they don't quite go as far as normal shotgun rounds.  Just 35/675 with an NP of 8.  000 does the normal 1d+2 pi out to 50/900, NP 8.  The flechettes are fun, NP 20 doing  1d+1 pi-, but getting 80/950 for range.

NP is the number after the RoF 4x, so 4x20 for the flechettes and 80 shots on the RoF table for a +6 to hit!  Bwahahahahaha!

Normal 12ga ammunition uses the same damage and range stats as the lowly Remington 870 you can find in High-Tech.

I'm still debating if I should include it.  What's the hive think?

.410 Brace

Even though all the ammo shown is 2-1/2", both guns are chambered for 3" shells.

I am not saying anything in this picture is practical.

I am saying don't avoid things that delight you.

The KSG410 is kinda a pistol caliber carbine similar to .44 Magnum in performance... kinda, sorta.

The wee little slugs are 3d+1 pi+ out to 100/1,200.

.44 Magnum from this barrel length gets 4d+1 pi+ to 620/3,600.  From a revolver, .44 does 3d+1 pi+ to 210/3,200.  That's right, this shoulder fired gun is outranged by a handgun!

Light projectiles and moderate velocities do that.

Other Priorities

Marv has got hissef a silly .410 shotgun.

Kel Tec's KSG410.

Pictures to come.

It's renewed my interest in a Savage 42.

I stock .22 WMR for the Savage 93F and .410 for Bubba's Taurus Judge already.

I've always wanted a drilling bockbüchsflinte!

The $600 price of entry for a silly want like this keeps me away, especially when we've been doing home maintenance like madmen.

Buck And Ball

Silly .410 revolvers have spurred a renaissance for buck and ball ammunition.

Hornady has a 2-1/2" round that fires a 115gr hollow point followed by two 65gr, .35 caliber round balls.

Pretty much, bog standard buck and ball.

I have rules for that!

The bullet should do 1d+2(0.5) pi++ and the balls should do 1d pi.  Ranges are, as is typical, pathetic.

160/1,600 for the bullet and 44/890 for the balls.

That does over power and outrange the disc and BB loads Winchester makes, but at the cost of losing the RoF hit bonuses from 19 projectiles heading down range.

THE BUSH TOOB: Rhodesian FN Auto 5