Moar Maffs

We "established" in AWB Math that a 9x19mm handgun did more damage than a .45 ACP because you had more ammo and 11 times 90% is more than 8 times 100%.

This is true, if you don't miss any shots and have the time to deliver them.

The normal rate of fire (RoF) for a semi-automatic handgun in GURPS is 3 per second (or turn).  Yes, you can shoot faster and there are rules for that but they have penalties we don't want to introduce here because I don't wanna (though I might anyway).

A .45 ACP Colt Gov't Model has an Acc (accuracy) of 2 and Rcl (recoil) of 3 with a ST (strength) of 10.

A 9x19mm Glock 17 has an Acc of 2, Rcl of 2 with a ST of 8.

ST won't be a factor so we can skip it from now on.

The average person has a DX (dexterity) of 10 and, to be honest, zero training with a handgun.  Default skill level for the average person with Guns/TL7 or TL8 (Pistol) is a whopping 6.  A person who's attended enough class to gain a point in the skill gets a 10.  A 10 on 3d6 is a 50-50 chance with no penalties.

Always remember that GURPS has harsh penalties built into the combat rules, a person at a range can get up to +10 in bonuses because of the lack of stress from being not in actual combat.

In GURPS 3e a point was 200 hours of study and practice.  4e is less well defined.  It gets murkier when you consider that the skill is used for things besides shooting too.

Traditional pistol range is 7 yards, or a -3 penalty.

The untrained person firing without aiming needs to roll a 3 or less at 7 yards to hit a torso.  Here .45 is better because there's literally no chance of getting a second hit.

The minimally trained person's skill of 10 gets a 7 or less chance to hit with the first round without aiming with either gun.  With .45 a roll of 4 or less lands two rounds.  With 9mm a roll of 5 lands two and a roll of 3 lands three!  Potentially 9mm is better, but those aren't good odds, especially considering that a 7 or less is a mere 16.20% chance; but you are more than twice as likely get two hits with a 9x19 than a .45 (4.62% vs 1.85%).

If you take the second to aim first, the +2 to hit does help a bit.  .45 hits on a 9, 6 and 3 now; 9x19 on a 9, 7, and 5.  9 being ten times as likely to get three hits as .45!  Bearing in mind that a 4.62% chance is not that large...

However, are two shots of .45 as good or better than three of 9x19 since the odds are similar.

On average, the .45 will do 20 points of damage and the 9mm 27.

Again, this is against the Torso.

If we were trained to aim-small, miss-small and we aimed as small as possible on the torso, we're really aiming at the vitals.  That's an additional -3 penalty.

Now .45 hits on a 6, 3 and can't.  9mm hits on a 6, 4 and can't.

Average damage for two hits is now 42 vs 54...  This is because there's no difference between pi+ and pi when you hit the vitals, skull or eyes.  Odds are you're wasting two shots from either gun at full RoF at this range/skill level though.

A range of 7 yards might be a tad unrealistic, an assailant is probably charging you.  Probably with a move of 6 yards per second if you include sprint bonuses.

That means all the fun happens at one yard!

Another "odds are" statement.  With a charging assailant, the untrained person is probably going to open up on the bad guy at 7 with all three rounds, then fire again at 1 yard with all three rounds.

Chances to hit are 3, can't and can't at 7 for either gun and 6, 3 and can't for .45 or 6, 4, and can't for 9mm.

The trained person aims at 7 and only gets to fire once the range has closed to 1.  -3 for aiming at the vitals, 0 penalty for range and +2 for Acc.  Chances to hit are 9, 6 and 3 for .45 and 9, 7 and 5 for 9mm.  Just going for the torso changes things to 12, 9 and 6 for the .45 and 12, 10 and 8 for 9mm.

So, yes, in GURPS terms you want to use a 9mm and not a .45.

But wait!  That's all ball ammo!  What about hollow-points?  Same progression with narrower margins on the torso, same margins on vitals.

GURPS Again

This is mostly a repeat.  I know I've yapped about this before.

I've mostly never been in the "caliber must start with a 4" camp.

I say that even though .45 ACP was my only pistol cartridge for quite a spell.

The silly reason I never bought into the caliber wars was gaming.

In most games there's not enough difference between 9mm, .40 S&W or .45 ACP damage to bother.

What you often got with 9mm was a lot more shots.

That's why I "bought" a Hi-Power so often.  Having 13 shots was better than having 8.

TSR's Top Secret is my first Hi-Power.

The Beretta M9 was my preferred Twilight: 2000 pistol.  It would have been a Glock 17 except I got a price break for buying my nation's issue gun.  Before I knew what a shit-show the L85A1 was, if I was playing a Brit I was packing an L9 (Hi-Power again).

Even Traveller was using 9mm handguns.  The automatic pistol from LBB:1 is obviously a 9x19 wonder-nine.

It's EVERYWHERE!

Then there's GURPS.  A full sized 9x19 does 2d+2 pi.  A .45 does 2d pi+.

They're mathematically almost identical for damage.  9x19 will average 9 points per shot, .45 will do 10.5.  Moving to hollow points shifts that to 13.5 and 14 respectively.

Notice something there?

The bigger is better contingent in the real world goes all the way back to when hollow-points were exotic and unreliable in pistols; both in the gun functioning and in the round expanding.  And in ball, the .45 does about 17% more damage.

I am sure you've seen the ballistics gel picture where 9mm and .45 are cutting nearly identical tracks with modern HP ammo...  13.5 and 14 reflect this reality.

The amazing thing is that GURPS predates a lot of this analysis being readily available.

I think they got lucky with the proxies they used to generate damage, but a constant refrain from Mr Jackson himself back when GURPS was fresh and new was that a reality test trumped game balance.

GURPS was kind of revolutionary in using real units for everything at the time.

You could reverse engineer things!

And we did.

And it rapidly boiled back to "if the damage is the same, why not have more shots?"

It also became really obvious that we very rarely used the pistol we had listed on our character sheet.

Most any gamer in modern or future settings intestinally Groks that a pistol is for fighting your way to your rifle or only for use when your rifle isn't available for what ever reason.

I've have more use of a bayonet than a sidearm in gaming.

But I still buy that handgun and list it on the sheet.

Just in case...

Like the real world when I'm carrying.

Just in case... 

Beating The 9mm With Super Powers

GURPS 3e 9x19mm stats are: 2d+2 crushing, RoF 3, Acc 3, 1/2D 150, Max 1,900

GURPS 4e 9x19mm stats are: 2d+2 pi, RoF 3, Acc 2 Range 160/1,800

GURPS: Supers (for third edition, 4th printing) gives range stats of 10 * power for the max range and 1/2D is half that.

So power 1 gives Max of 10, power 2 Max of 20, etc...

Each power level of the crushing attack Stone Missile costs 6 points.  So a base of 12 points to get to 2d crushing, Acc 1, 1/2D 10, Max 20.

Accuracy enhancement for Acc 3(+10%).

Rapid Fire enhancement for RoF 3 (+80%).

And no means of increasing the range without increasing the damage too...

To get the 150 1/2D of a Glock, you need 30 levels and will now do 30d and cost 405 points.  The max range still falls way short at 300.  Yes, that's more than twice what a .50 BMG does for damage... at the same range as a pistol...

Since halving the range is a -5% limitation, one could argue that doubling the range is, likewise, a 5% enhancement.  To get from a 1/2D of 10 to 150ish... needs to be doubled four times or +20% to (mostly) match a 9mm pistol.  Still short some damage.  +2 is a half die, so... 2.5 levels of Stone Missile?

32 points and the 1/2D range is slightly better than a 9mm.  2d+2 crushing, Acc 3, 1/2D 200, Max 400.

How about 4th edition?

You start with Inate Attack - Piercing.  5 pts/level (1d pi per level).  Acc 3, RoF 1, 10/100.

2.5 levels for 2d+2 pi.  13 points, base.

Increased Range at 10% per level needs 4 levels, or +40% to get 200/2,000 (close enough to 9mm).

Rapid fire for RoF 3 is +50%.

Accuracy will be reduced by 1 for a -5% limitation.

23 points for 2d+2 pi, Acc 2, RoF 3, Range 200/2,000.

Unlimited ammo in both the 3e and 4e cases, as a super should have.

Once again, 4th edition is MUCH simpler to work out what I wanted to do and it really underscores why we stopped trying to use GURPS 3eR for supers and went back to Champions/Hero.

Comparable?

 

M&P 45C vs M&P 9 Shield.

As shown, both are 8+1.

The .45 is 2 lb. with 0.5 lb. magazines.  The 9 is 1.5 lb. with 0.3 lb. magazines.

The 9mm fits easily in a pocket if you use the 7-round magazines.  This is reflected by the Bulk -2 of the 45C and Bulk -1 of the Shield.

Loaded with hollow-points the .45 does 2d-1(0.5) pi++, the 9mm does 2d+1(0.5) pi+.

The 45C's range is 150/1,600; the Shield 140/1,600.

You need a ST of 10 to avoid skill penalties with the 45 and 9 for the 9.

They're equally hard to keep on target with Rcl of 3 for both.  One kicks harder, the other has small grips.  GURPS recoil is a "controllablity" for follow-up shots rather than a measure of actual recoil.

This is compensated by getting an Acc of 2 instead of 1. 

Because Acc doesn't come up much in a dynamic fight and since 9mm will average about the same damage to a torso target (1-20, avg 10 for .45 ACP and 3-18 avg 10) and the 9mm is lighter...

The discerning GURPS conceal carrier will pack the smaller and lighter M&P 9 Shield in favor of the bigger and heavier 45C.

Broken Fixed Broken (Updated)

Even though I'm not an accredited expert in the eyes of Steve Jackson Games, I was once dismissed as a hobbyist, I do know a thing or two about guns.

What exactly is a hobbyist?

They're the experts in a topic who don't make a career out of it and educate themselves on their own dimes.

I've been calculating various rounds with GURPS: Gun Stats and this book has been found wanting.

Sad trombone.

The first, gigantic, problem is that .30 Caliber M1903 ball out performs .30 Caliber M2 ball.  It's like it was stupid for everyone to change over to spitzer rounds.

But spitzer rounds carry more energy farther than round-nose bullets.  The 1/2D numbers generated are backwards of reality.

This fails the reality check. 

Then I calculated a few pistol rounds.

9mm came out almost the same as published materials.  .40 S&W was a bit worse than published and a bit better than my house rule...  But .45 ACP was as good as the legends!

Way more range and +2 to the damage.

The old numbers were 2d+2 pi for 9mm and 2d pi+ for .45 ACP.  This gives them almost identical damage to tissue (avg. 9 points vs 10) and reflects that 9mm is slightly better at punching things like car doors.

New numbers has .45 at 2d+2 pi+, so it will now punch car doors the same and do more damage in tissue (avg. 9 points vs 13).

This fails the reality check.

I missed something.

First, I had the wrong bullet diameter, copy paste error.

The ranges are calculated differently if the muzzle velocity is under 1,000 feet per second.

Now the damage is 2d+1 pi+ and that changes the average damages to 9 for 9mm and 11 for .45.  .45 is slightly worse at car doors again!

While it seems to do fine with pistols, this book does NOT GURPS! 

About That Ranseur

For us ancient gamers, back when gamer meant pencils, a table, paper and dice, there was Advanced Dungeons and Dragons.

We recall E Gary Gygax looked up every synonym of "polearm" and put them on the weapon table.  We even got pictures when Unearthed Arcana came out.

If you used the speed/range table, the differences in these weapons mattered.  Real debate about the relative merit between a glaive and glaive-guisarme happened with the same heat as 9mm vs .45.

Here's a series of youtube on the problem.  In particular...



It was actually something of a relief when we converted to GURPS with just a few polearms defined by effect rather than appearance (glaive, halberd, and poleaxe in 3e adding a naginata for 4e) and it boils down to what kind of thrusting damage you do when stabbing and if there's a hook on the side.  The GURPS names for these things is wrong for a lot of the weapons represented, and it's not until Low-Tech for 4e that we start adding in all the silly sub-variants we're familiar with from the old AD&D days, but it's still a pretty sparse list by comparison.  Bill (including dueling bill, forest bill and guisarme), Glaive (including dueling glaive, bardiche, fauchard, jedwart, jeddart stave, and lochaber axe), Halberd (including dueling halberd, ji and voulge), Horse-Cutter (including pudao and bisento), Monk's Spade, Naginata (including nagamaki, rhomphaia, and ngao), Poleaxe (ahistorical) and Polleaxe (including bec de corbin).  With sub-variations listed in the text description.

In GURPS, spears (including bolg, chaing, hasta, ngao, sibat and yari) and warhammers aren't polearms because they use different skills.

Our friend the ranseur is listed under partisan (Low Tech p. 60), and that's just a kind of spear using the spear skill.  In GURPS terms, a ranseur is the same as a boar spear, Bohemian ear-spoon, magari-yari, partisan, spetum, or spontoon.  An "unthrowable" spear with something to keep the impaled target from walking up the stave (rules for this are in the GURPS: Martial Arts I don't own).

NIJ And GURPS

 Link to the National Institute of Justice pdf about the level criteria.

The GURPS standard for penetration is based on the average roll of a six sided die, or 3.5 points.

That means that something that is proof against 2d will have DR 7.  That also means that 2d can penetrate it on a good die roll.

This is GURPS and not the real world, but we're going to try to get things to pass a reality check and still conform to the game assumptions.

What they're supposed to stop:

Type IIA: 9mm and .40 S&W

Type II: 9mm and .357 Magnum

Type IIIA: .357 SIG and .44 Magnum

Type III: Rifles 7.62x51mm M80 ball from an M14 is what's spec'd.

Type IV: Armor piercing rifles .30-06 M2 AP from an M1 is what's spec'd.

The standards specify bullet weight and velocity.

IIA: 2d+2 pi and 2d pi+ --> DR 9

II: 3d pi --> DR 10

IIIA: 3d-1 pi and 3d+2 pi+ --> DR 12

III: 7d pi --> DR 25

IV: 5d(2) pi- --> DR 35

Quite simple, really.

No Advantage

Going through the 9mm's GURPS stats and there's some fun stuff going on from a player's perspective that might not pass a reality check, but the system doesn't go fine enough to catch.

A Glock 17 and Glock 45 are the same weight (2/0.6), and have the same number of shots(17+1(3)).  They have the same bulk.

But the 17 does more damage (2d+2 pi vs 2d+1 pi) and has longer range (160/1,800 vs 140/1,600).

An M&P 9 does the same damage as the Glock 17 and has the same number of shots, but it's heavier in all respects (2.2/0.7).

The hybrid Sigma appears to have some advantage.  The drop in damage and range is at least accompanied by a lower weight, (1.9/0.6) but also loses one shot (16+1(3)).

The Wonder Nines™®© don't compare favorable once plastic fantastics appear.

The S&W 59 has the lower damage and range, 14+1(3) shots and is heavy at 2.3/0.6.  TL8 magazines fix the capacity at no weight penalty, leaving you with a heavy Glock 45!

Beretta's M9 has the higher damage and range, but fewer shots (15+1(3)) and more weight (2.4/0.6).  Like the 59, there are 17 round magazines commonly available at TL8, but have a slight change in weight to 2.5/0.7.

The ur 9mm double stack, the Browning HP gets the higher damage, lowest capacity and has all the mass.  13+1(3) shots and 2.4/0.5 weight.  TL8 magazines up the capacity to 15+1(3) with no weight penalty.

None of these stats account for ephemeral things like the HP with Spegel grips fitting my hand as if the gun was made for it.  There's rules for that (Weapon Bond perk; High-Tech p.250), but it's not on the weapons table and it requires the player to do more reading than they typically do.

It doesn't account for me liking Glocks better than M&P's, or Marv and Harvey feeling the opposite.

I am often reminded of a scene from Farscape where John Crichton is comparing two pulse pistols back and forth.  They appear to be identical, but only one is Winona.  Winona fits him, the other doesn't.

Non-Subjective

We can quote numbers all day, but they're meaningless unless we have them in GURPS terms!

1911 in .45 ACP does 2d pi+, out to 150/1,600 weighing 2.8/0.5 lb. with 7+1 shots and Rcl 3.

In 10mm it does 3d-1 pi+, out to 290/2,300 weighing 2.8/0.4 lb. with 8+1 shots and Rcl 4.

2d pi+ will do an average of 7 points of raw damage and deal 10 points of damage to the torso.

3d-1 pi+ will average 9 points of raw damage and deal 13 points of damage.

More damage, more range, lighter magazines, more shots... WIN!

But...

Skill 15 shooter, Acc 2, 7 yards.  No aim, so I don't know why I mentioned the acc...

-3 for the range so 12 or less to hit.  Average roll of 10 gives 1 shot hitting out of three for both guns.  10mm still in the lead.

A 9 gives 2 hits with .45 and a 6 gives 3 hits.

10mm needs an 8 for two hits and a 4 for three.

That recoil number be serious, yo.

Both have a 74.07% chance to land the first round.

So a 1911, in this case has a 9.25% chance at all three rounds, and a 37.5% chance for 2.

10mm has 1.38% for all three and just 25.92% for 2.

Three hits with .45 does more damage (30 average) than two hits of 10mm (26 average).

But wait!  There's MORE!

.40 S&W does 2d pi+ too.  It's recoil number is 2.

It's going to hit with one round on a 12 or less (same 74.07%), two rounds on a 10 (50%) or less and all three on an 8 or less (25.92%).  10mm Kurz gets all three rounds for the same die roll as .40 S&W Long gets just two.  3x2d pi+ > 2x3d-1 pi+  Oh, the .40 S&W gun is going to be lighter, usually with the same capacity.

Still more!

9x19mm does 2d+2 pi.  Average hit is 9 raw points and 9 damage.  It's recoil is also 2, so the same chances to hit as .40 S&W but a bit less damage.  9, 18 and 27 for one, two and three rounds respectively.  3x 2d+2 pi > 2x 3d-1 pi+.  9mm guns are even lighter than .40 S&W and usually carry more shots.

And this, at the end of the day, is why 10mm languished while 9mm is in just about everyone's holsters.  The slight edge in damage from .40 S&W is somewhat nullified by the extra number of shots the 9mm gets.

Then there's 9mm being a lot cheaper per shot.

I still WANT a 10mm ACP though.  Just gotta decide how long I wanna save for one and how sexy a beast it will be.  Colt Delta Elite and S&W 1076 lead the pack for sexy.  Rock Island and Glock lead on affordability.  Real insanity happens with finding a SIG P220 in 10mm.  But that way lies madness because I'd want to have a P220 in .38 Super too.  Peak insanity is finding a Bren 10.

I kind of am leaning at a 1911 in 10mm so I can have all three rounds that are "native" to the 1911.

Rebarrel

Willard's Husqvarna M/07 came rechambered for .380 ACP.

A sensible change for importation to the American market.

But it's just not right.

You can't tell from looking at it, but that's an original surplus 9x21mmSR barrel (aka 9mm Browning Long).

Now we can get the full, original as John Moses Browning (peace be upon him) intended!

L->R in GURPS order of puissance.

.380 ACP. (aka 9x17mm Kurz or Short)
9mm Browning Long.  (aka 9x21mmSR)
9mm Largo. (aka 9x23mm Bergmann-Bayard)
9mm Parabellum. (aka 9x19mm Luger)
.38 Super.

Broke The Paradigm

There was once a time when I played Champions regular like.

In fact, I started playing THE Super Hero Role Playing Game before I became an avid comic book reader.

Because GURPS 3e, like Champions (which the Hero system is based on) is points based, and since the GURPS tool-box has all the stuff you need to make a super-hero... PLUS a Supers supplement...

It was a no-brainer to make Supers campaigns.

But...

It was very expensive to buy a ranged attack that could out-range a 9mm pistol.  48 points got you a pretty epic 7d(3) impaling attack that only did full damage to 17 yards and was maxed out at 34!  Rof 2.  Oh and you can't use it in high magnetic fields or underwater the way I bought it.  And it needed to be coupled with 72 point gravity power.

120 points and someone with a Glock can shoot at you with impunity from 50 yards.  Not that I was scared of Glocks with 74 points of hardened DR

With the default 500 points in hand, it occurred to me that I could go very dark and not break any rules.

Make a normal 100 point character who's a sniper and toss 400 points into wealth.

Buy a bespoke .50 Cal rifle (13d(2) crushing and 2,200 for 1/2D range with a max of 7,100 yards) and pop villains as they cross into the line of fire.  Fire your shot, relocate while the round was still in flight and set up in a new location.

This made me the target of the heroes!  You didn't just KILL the bad guys.

But taking one action a week isn't fun for long.  My character escaped justice because I stopped playing him.

Then I noticed that I could make a normal 100 point character with 100 points of wealth and 300 points of Advanced and have nigh invincible technology.  And have a weapon that certainly out-ranged a 9mm pistol.

How did I become a gunner?

Jennifer wants to know.

I don't have a definite point where I wasn't a gunner before but I definitely was after.  It was a nebulous transition period.

When I was a child, being a boy, we played cops and robbers, cowboys and indians and war.  All required some sort of toy gun.  My parents didn't care I was out of the house and those games meant I was exercising.

My circle of friends loved the WW2 films and TV shows that were on syndication on the local UHF channels.  This led us to an interest in military technology and 1/35 scale models of tanks, and 1/48 scale models of planes.

For me the model thing led to ever more detailed research to build better and better (read more accurate) models.  It also led to changing to 1/72 for airplanes because of space considerations.

At some point I found myself in Iowa (visiting relatives; I lived in Bolingbrook, Illinois).  I fired my first round ever from a .22 rifle my uncle owned.  He took my cousin (his son) my sister and me all shooting at some cans.  I had a great time!  Alas, my home appeared to be a gun free zone.  I didn't know about Illinois and guns at the time (being a wee lad of 3-9).

My dad had a 1911 stashed away, illegally, that I had stumbled across at least once as a kid.  But dad never went shooting or took us with if he did.

Then there was the divorce.  Mom took my sister and I to Iowa where her relatives lived.

There I was reintroduced to the idea of guns through a boyfriend of Mom's.  Again, a .22, again FUN!

At some point I acquired a bb gun (gift from dad) and even got in trouble for shooting at a friend's brother's feet.  Got the "you'll put an eye out" lecture and everything.  Problem here is that I had nobody TEACHING me about guns.  I got better about it.

Some place around here I got the idea that we didn't need guns, so banning them would be OK.

I remained interested in guns because of my interests in mil-tech and because I had discovered table-top role playing games.  Champions, Traveller, Twilight 2000 and GURPS more than AD&D.  Characters needed guns and knowing the real stats about them gave you an edge over the GM.

I have more than one musty old character sheet where the character packs a Browning GP35 for no reason other than it held 13 rounds instead of 6 or 7.

For Twilight 2000 and GURPS I delved even more into real stats since those were the first games I played that even came close to dabbling in real numbers.

Some place in here I had my first debate about needing a gun.  I blame this guy.  He is the first person who confronted me about what I was thinking and why.  Introduced me to the idea of critical thinking, he did.

I was still brutally ignorant about firearms laws, I thought there was 100% registration and all sorts of nonsense.

Along in here my Dad admitted to owning some guns, which I was allowed to shoot on rare occasions.  I acquired some friends who had .22's and we went plinking from time to time; but I had only a small interest in actually owning a gun.  That small interest was a Galil.  It was the coolest gun evar!  It's far superior than anything else because it holds 35 rounds not 20 or 30...

But I never got that Galil.

Instead I joined the Army.

I joined in 1987 just short of my 19th birthday.  '87 was a transition year for someone going into tanks.  I was signed as a 19K (Abrams Crew) but we learned the M60A3 as well; just in case the unit we were assigned to had not changed over yet.

Gun geek heaven!  But I was not yet a gun geek.  I had fun shooting and learning all the different guns though.

At some point in here I decided that I would personally own a firearm.  At some undefined future date.

Then my unit had a bit of a hiccup in the supply lines.  We'd turned in our M1911A1's and all the ammo and drawn 9mm in anticipation of being issued new M9's.  Except the M9 was having some sort of production stoppage and there were no pistols to issue us.  We were scheduled to leave for the West German-Czech border any time now to cover a unit there that was going to Graf for training.  We got permission to hit the rod-and-gun club's gun shop and order, "anything that shoots 9mm," and we'd be compensated for the purchase up to some amount I don't recall.  I bought a Glock 17; my first gun!  I chose it because it held 17 rounds, that's more than a Beretta so better!  Someplace in here is where I learned 17+1 too.  I was just barely 20 when I injured myself in a fall from a tank and had to sell the gun before returning home, had to be 21 to bring a handgun back with you from Germany in those days.

My first brush with gun control.

I got my medical discharge, my service connected disability, vocational rehabilitation and a stipend.

I wanted my Glock back.

But this guy wanted to buy "a gun".  Because I was the person he knew who knew the most about guns, he asked what would I recommend.  It came down to a Mini-14.  I've never had a problem with 5.56 as a killer and the Mini seemed like a good gun from what I had available to read.  His worked well enough that I bought my own, and so did a couple more of our friends.  We practically standardized on the Mini.

Then I bought a replacement for  my Glock 17.

At this point I an now a gun owner, but not yet a gunnie.

That moment happens in late 1993.  The Brady Bill and Assault Weapon Bans get passed.  I have a, "what did I do," moment since not a single one of my firearms had ever shot up a school yard.

In response to the AWB I built my first evil black rifle, an L1A1 from a parts kit on an Entrèprise receiver, literally days before the ban took effect.

This marked a dual change.  First I became interested in politics for the first time.  Second I started really looking at how guns work and understanding the differences between the types of actions.  I wanted to touch and feel and taste the differences and variations.  Then I was a gunnie.

Why Not 9mm?

More GURPS gun trivia!

Why not 9mm for your character?  Start here.

We'll stay retro and Browning and use a Browning HP to compare against our 1911's.

The HP is lighter than both 1911's; 2.4 lbs.  Its magazines are the same weight as the .45; 0.5 lbs.

Those magazines hold 13 rounds though!

Rcl is 2, same as .38 Super.

Damage is 2d+2 pi.  (2 x 3.5) + 2 = 9 points.  Same as the .38 Super on average.  The spread is different.  9x19 gets 4-14 of damage, .38 Super gets 2-17.  But we're looking at averages here.  (Potentially the .45 does the most damage against an unarmored target with a spread of 3-18).

Because the average damage is the same, everything I said about .38 Super here applies to 9mm, but with 4 more shots before you run dry in a lighter gun!  126 points of damage per load.  42 through that DR 6 vest from before.

If the setting allows, change that HP to a Glock 17 and you get two more shots and half pound lighter!

All three guns have the same RoF so comparisons of total damage are perhaps unfair.

With 7+1 rounds the .45 gets two turns with 3 shots each and one with two rounds.  The 9+1 of the .38 Super will have three turns of full RoF with a fourth turn getting a single shot.  13+1 gives four of full rate and a remainder with two.

All three guns reload in 3 turns.  To fire 14 rounds the .45 will need 9 turns (reload turns being 4-6).  The .38 Super also needs nine (with the reload happening in turns 5-7).  The HP needs 5 turns.  A Glock also needs five turns, and has four shots left!

Random Babble

I'm sitting here considering that a 9mm pistol in GURPS is differentiated by just weight and capacity.

There's some very slight differences in damage and range from differing barrel lengths, but most are the same.

Then I segued into wondering how this applied to the real world.

Are 9mm pistols all that different?

There's reams of articles and terabytes of data dedicated to saying, "yes," but how different are they?

I shoot my Hi-Power better than any other 9mm I own.

I can't tell the difference between targets from shooting my Glock 17 or M&P 9.  Or the Glock 45 for that matter.

The Lovely Harvey can't make the Glock 17 group for all the tea in India, but shoots her M&P 9 quite well.

Willard shoots the same group with just about anything he wraps his paws around.

I sometimes think that best one is the one you like best and are able to shoot acceptably.

Even if you chose it because it was "pretty".

Even if you chose it because it felt good in your hand in the gun shop.

And those two things could be attached to a gun you can't hit the broad side of a barn from within.

Did you read this far?

Yeah, I'm rambling.  This doesn't have a conclusion.

One Shot Stops

...And GURPS.

Common self defense ammo...  Let's go from small to big.

.25 ACP.  The smallest unless we count .22 LR, but there's not near so many actual concealable guns for the rimfire as .25.

.25 ACP pulls 1d pi-.  Center mass hits are body hits, so that's 1-6 raw damage, so 1-6 damage to penetrate then divide damage by 2 (round down min 1), so 1-3 points of damage vs the average of 10 HP.  Not even a major wound!

Changing to hollowpoints bumps the pi- to pi; but adds a 0.5 armor divisor.  That also makes normal clothing be DR 1.  That gives us 0-5 for reals now!  Now we have a chance to get a major wound.

On average vs the body: .25 ACP ball does 1 point and hollow point does 2.

.32 ACP is next.  2d-1 pi-.  1-11 raw damage.  1-11 penetrate then is divided in two for 0-5.  HP negates the pi- for pi and there's the DR 1 for normal clothes: 0-10 penetrate.

On average vs the body: .32 ACP ball does 3 points and hollow point does 5.

.380 will depend on the barrel length.  Short barrels like a SIG P238 get 2d-1 pi and longer barrels like a Colt 1908 Pocket Hammerless get 2d pi.

Short barrels get 1-11 that penetrate and stay 1-11!  While HP gets bumped from pi to pi+, the 0.5 armor divisor still lurks in the shadows (0-15 can penetrate).

On average a short barrel .380 ACP gets 6 points and HP gets 7.  An aside here, the similarity in damage between ball and HP was actually noted in a recent ballistics gel test of .380 rounds!  Go GURPS!

Long barrel .380's get 2-12 with ball (1-16 with HP).  pi+ with HP and the divisor.

On average that gets us 7 for ball and 9 for HP.

.38 Special from a snubby is 2d-1 pi and gets the exact same effects as a short barreled .380.

.357 Magnum from that snubber or 9x19mm from a full sized automatic is 2d+2 pi.  Ball 4-14 and HP 4-19!

Averages 9 for ball and 12 for HP.

Smaller 9mm's only get 2d+1 pi.  3-13 damage that averages to 8 for ball and 2-18 that averages 10 for hollow point.

Unorthodox rounds like .357 SIG and .38 Super get 3d-1 pi.  2-17 damage; averaging 9 for ball and 1-24 averaging. 12 for HP.

.40 S&W is an anomaly in GURPS.  2d+2 pi+.  Like all pi+ rounds damage that penetrates does 1.5x as much damage.  So it's 4-14 raw damage for ball that becomes 6-21 in tissue.  The hollow point bumps the damage to pi++ though, still with that damned armor divisor for 6-26.

Average damages will be 13 for ball and 16 for hollow points.

The beloved .45 ACP is a "mere" 2d pi+ for ball.  2-12 that becomes 3-18.  Averaged out, it's 10 for ball and 2-22 averages to 12 for HP.

Now that we've done all that math!

5 points of damage is a major wound on a typical ST 10 10 hit point person.  That means they're likely stunned and knocked down because they only have about a 50% chance of avoiding it with such a non-PC HT score.  Plus, any bullet that manages to do more than 10 means another HT roll to avoid being knocked unconscious.

While the benefit of the hollow points seem marginal on average, they can make the difference in whether the target keeps fighting next turn.

SUMMARY

Round -      Dmg - Ball, min - avg - max; HP, min - avg - max.
.25 ACP - 1d pi-;       0, 1, 3                     --             0, 2, 5.
.32 ACP    2d-1 pi-;   0, 3, 5                     --             0, 5, 10
.380 ACP  2d-1 pi;     1, 6, 11                   --            0, 9, 15
.380 ACP 2d pi;         2, 7, 12                   --            1, 9, 16
.38 Spcl 2d-1 pi;         1, 6, 11                   --            0, 9, 15
9x19mm 2d+1 pi;       3, 8, 13                   --            3, 10, 18
9x19mm 2d+2 pi;       4, 9, 14                   --            4, 12, 19

.357 Mag 2d+2 pi;      4, 9, 14                   --            4, 12, 19
.357 SIG 3d-1 pi;        2, 9, 17                   --            1, 12, 24
.38 Super 3d-1 pi;       2, 9, 17                   --            1, 12, 24
.40 S&W 2d+2 pi+;    6, 13, 21                 --            6, 16, 26

.45 ACP 2d pi+;         3, 10, 18                  --            2, 12, 22

.40 Anomaly

Should you find yourself playing in one of my worlds in GURPS want to use a .40 S&W pistol...

Take the published Damage, reduce it by 2 and increase the Rcl by 1.

Thus 2d+2 pi+ becomes 2d pi+ and 2d+1 pi+ becomes 2d-1 pi+... and so on.

For SMGs and pistol caliber carbines, only reduce the damage.

I think this accurately portrays the real world damage relative to 9x19mm and .45 ACP.

To the contingent that thinks that because .40 is a more modern round than those and deserves to do more damage, the modernity is reflected in the weight and number of shots.  Glock is a good place to see it.  A Glock 21 gets 13+1 shots of .45 and weighs 2.4 lb. loaded magazines are 0.8 lb.  A Glock 22 gets 15+1 shots of .40, weighs 2.1 lb. with magazines which are 0.7 lb.

I am tempted to say where the stats are derived from a 9mm gun, increase ST by one as well.  The only gun in High Tech 4e that's .40 S&W as the main table entry is a Kahr K40 and it's ST is 8, same as a Glock 17.  All of the other pistols stats are based on the stats from the 9mm parent gun.

Impulse Buy

Harvey has complained about her grip strength since she went bionic.

Because she's hit the wall in improving her shooting, we decided to rent a gun designed for people with bad grip strength.

The S&W Equalizer!

It's like a Shield Plus and an M&P EZ had a baby.  Even uses the Shield Plus magazines that I already have stacked deep for my pocket gun.

She liked it well enough that she decided we could pay interest on the credit card for it.

In GURPS terms it's identical to the M&P 2.0 9mm Compact it replaces, except for being 1.8 lb. loaded instead of 2 lb.  Same 15 round capacity.

Another plus is it fits slightly better in her purse's gun compartment.

It came with a 10-rounder, 13-rounder and 15-rounder and an UpLula.  You need that UpLula to get all 15 rounds into the big mag.

Thanks to the Shield Plus, we have a lot of the 13 rounders around already, gonna have to get some more of the 15 shot mags.

She didn't shoot the rental any worse than the M&P 2.0 9mm Compact she's been carrying; but she was much better with manipulating the slide.  She gushed about that.

One oddity was the slide lock is insanely hard to push down to let it slide home.

I'd have never noticed because I slingshot the slide, but she's been using it to release the slide on all of her pistols since she started learning to shoot.

Should be easy for her to adapt.

Nine Milimeter

Since I am soon to have a Hi-Power, the first wonder nine, I took stock of the calibers in the house already that are 9mm.

We've got (in GURPS puissance order):

.380 ACP/9x17mm Kurz (1908)

.38 Special (1898)
9x19mm Luger/Parabellum/NATO (1902)
.38 Super (1929)

.357 SIG (1994)

.357 Magnum (1934)

Wow this caliber is common in handgun cartridges and those are really just the most common running around today, plus .357 SIG and .38 Super.

Looking at my cartridges book, there's scads and scads of "also rans" in 9mm as well.  Some of the common rounds today were developed from rounds that are no longer common today.

.38 Special is a lengthened .38 Long Colt and .357 Magnum is a lengthened .38 Special.

.38 Super is .38 ACP loaded a lot hotter.

While I trend towards the "use a round that starts with 4" philosophy; you have to admit that this caliber has been around enough years that if it really sucked, it'd be far less common (paging .32 caliber).  If you're honest with yourself, you'll have to admit that there's just not much difference between the full power nines and the 4x rounds.  Even going magnum doesn't improve the wound ballistics enough to compensate for the extra blast and recoil most of the time.

Cop Killer +P

Based on one set of numbers, the teflon coated AP pistol rounds might be +P pressures.

I have stats for that! (Audience who isn't into GURPS, "SIGH, of course you do...")

+P gives a 10% boost to damage and range.

AP drops damage to 70%.

You do one then the other... so you end up with 77% damage compared to ball with AP +P.

38 Special: 2d pi for ball, 2d+1 pi for +P, 1d+1(2) pi- for AP, 1d+2(2) pi- for AP +P.

38 Special is G$ 0.30 per round.  +P is G$ 0.45.  AP is G$ 0.45.  AP +P is G$0.68.

9mm follows the same progression:  2d+2 pi for ball, 3d-1 pi for +P, 2d-1(2) pi- for AP, 2d(2) pi- for AP +P.

Prices are the same in GURPS dollars as .38 Special.

Caliber Matching

In The Old West it was relatively common to see someone's rifle and revolver in the same caliber.

You can do the same thing today!

Willard's got a Rossi model 92 in .44 Magnum and a couple of .44 Revolvers.

The Lovely Harvey has a model 92 and a Peacemaker clone in .357 Magnum.

Marvyn is eyeing a 92 in .357 and we're sure to guilt cajole him into a .357 revolver of some stripe as well.  Perhaps an Astra just to be really strange?

Me?

I want my brace to be in .45 Colt.  The problem is what lever gun will go best with my SAA and Anaconda?

Model 73's and 92's are readily available.  So are clones of the old Colt Burgess.  Marlin 1894?  Maybe a Spencer?  Or a Lightning pump-action...

Or go all modern and get it in 9mm?  A 9mm CAR-15 sounds like fun.

There is a plethora of choices and I have GURPS stats for all of them...