That's Right (Updated)

I skipped the BRDM-3 because the vehicle in T2K never happened!

There's no 30mm armed version of the thing.

The OT-65 in the game is closest to the OT-66, but not quite the same.

I need to check if the BRDM-2 would have stayed in service, because I think they were being phased out for BTR-70 variants.

Update: The BRDM-2M remained in service with the turret from a BTR-80.  Still 14.5mm gun though.

I think the same trend was going on with OT-65 users too.

Update: The OT-65 and OT-66 would have been out of service by the time T2K rolled around and were, mostly, replaced by the very similar BRDM-2M.

I feel all better now!

I might make stats for the OT-65 and 66 anyways, because there are still a lot of them around in storage depots today.  Someone probably got some running, much like the Soviet Union Russia is doing with T-55's for service in Ukraine.

Resurrected

Unfortunately, I had to cut off the conversation just as Willard was warming to his argument... We're often in agreement about a point in a way that doesn't SEEM like we agree.

But I have theorized that the three enemy combatants at The Battle of the BTR-152 whom were shot with the, now, obsolete and useless Colt Commander and Winchester Silver-Tip ammo are now alive.

What with all this new fangled, better, guns and ammo available now, anyone killed with something so old and out of fashion must surely be rendered alive again because all such gauche guns could not possibly have ever been effective.

Right?

I am sure that snarkily calling .45 ACP "forty-five AARP" scores points with the Instructorati, but it doesn't erase decades of effective stops.

And 9x19mm Parabellum ain't no spring fucking chicken neither.  It's OLDER than .45 ACP by three years!

What's happened in recent years is bullet design has allowed 9mm to perform as well as .45 did; but in smaller, lighter guns that hold more bullets and are easier to shoot.

Perform as well.

That means .45 will still get the job done, you'll just have fewer chances to hit and your gun will be bigger and heavier and you're going to have to invest more time into learning to shoot it well.

I happen to like both rounds and own several guns in each caliber.

It should be noted that those same advances in bullet design don't apply to .45 ACP because of the much lower velocities, even in light +P loads.  Those same advances might explain why 10mm ACP is making a bit of a comeback, you can't accuse that round of being low velocity in most loads.

It should also be remembered that there's not a lot of difference between suitable pistol rounds at all.

We've really been arguing around the margins for a long while.

Regimental History

It's kind of a thrill to see someone you know mentioned in a Wikipedia entry.

Willard is in this one.

He points out several inaccuracies (like his name being typoed), but goes along with the flow of the narrative.

This is also the engagement where the Battle of the BTR-152 occurred.

BTR-152 Addendum

This post makes it seem like it was near impossible to pop three guys dead right there in the back of the head from 4 yards.

If you line up the targets at the range, this is an easy exercise and you wonder how anyone could miss.

GURPS 4e default mode includes assumes some penalties that might not apply to some people.

You can get up to +10 to your roll in a non-combat situation, giving us a 20 for the first two shots and 18 for the third.

Being a cold blooded motherfucker means shooting at people is like a day at the range, so you should get bonuses to shoot at them.  Combat Reflexes, Unfazeable and levels of Fearlessness should come into play to help, it's not explicitly said in the rules though.  The GM has to make a leap of faith and apply it.

You've got to decide what alleviates the symptoms that cause the defacto -10 penalty to all combat shooting.  The rules as written avoid stating the combination of advantages and disadvantages that fully eliminate the penalty because it's surely to be abused by the players.  Leaving it up to the GM also means "The GM giveth and the GM taketh away."

If you get a player who goes all rules-lawyer on you, just direct them to B345 Task Difficulty.

Except For It Actually Happening Your Theory Disproving It Is Spot On

Since I've made my niche being the asshole, here we go...

Mr Chomps, at the battle of the BTR-152, shot dead the three crewmen in the vehicle.

He used a pistol chambered in .45 ACP, made three head shots and the ball ammunition punched the Soviet made steel helmets to do it.

"But what were your split times?" I asked.

"Didn't the RO asking, 'shooter ready?' and the 'MEEP' of the timer alert the crew of the vehicle?"

Mr Chomps facial expression to my questions is hilarious.

His training on a pistol, to that point, had been the standard US Army course in the M1911A1 for officers and his personal interest in going shooting because it's fun.

No 2,000 round endurance test of his Colt Commander either.

So I ask the instructorati: Have you ever, real life, applied the skills you're teaching?

Because we keep looking up gun writers and trainers and keep finding that the answer is a resounding NO most of the time.

They might be taking notes from actual engagements by others, but they've no real life experience in the subject and deign to lecture someone who's actually been there and done that.

By the way, it wasn't the training that got Mr Chomps through that day.  It's the fact that he's a remorseless killer who can make the decision to kill that guy over there.  That's not easy to train for and would in all likelihood get your ass in court over what you're trying to teach.

Because if you're actually serious about this self defense shit, you have to be in the mindset that you're going to have to kill some person to successfully defend yourself or your home.

How many rounds of 9mm is that?  Will I learn it faster using expensive hollow-points or cheap ball?  What split time before it becomes second nature?  Is there an NRA certification?

GURPS Battle Of The BTR-152

A real gunfight.

Start with a Colt Commander.

You've made a successful Stealth roll to approach the vehicle from behind and weren't heard climbing up the rear bumper.

Peering over the top of the troop compartment you see three enemy soldiers sitting on the seats up front, facing the front of the vehicle.

You take a ready action to draw your pistol and take one round to aim...

Your Guns/TL7 (Pistol) skill is 16.

You gain 2 from Acc, but lose 2 for the 4 yards distance from the back of the vehicle to the front.  You cannot brace or use two hands to fire because of your precarious position hanging off the rear.

You choose to shoot them in the skull to end the engagement quickly -7 and make it an all-out-attack (determined) for the extra +1.

Chance to hit the first guy is 10, then you lose the Acc bonus so 8 on the second and third guy each.  One shot per turn, three turns total.  And two whole turns for guy number 3 to turn around and shoot back if he recovers from being surprised.

Not great odds...

What if you could do it faster?

You can!  Tactical Shooting p.17-18 Shooting at Several Opponents allows for engaging more than one target per second.

The Quick-Shot technique lets you buy off the -6 penalty.

This means that the first two targets are fired upon in the first turn, so the Acc bonus is retained, 10 each then 8 on the third guy while he's taking his turn to recover from surprise!  Much better odds if you drop the [6] into Quick-Shot!

With ball ammunition you do 2d pi+.  They're HP 10 mooks wearing Soviet issue steel pots which have DR 4 then another DR 2 for the skull itself.  DR 6 total.  If you roll an average hit of 7, then 1 will penetrate the skull and do 4 points of damage.  But a maximum damage roll is 12 with 6 penetrating for 24 points of damage!  Any roll of 8 or higher is a major wound and it's unlikely that the victim will remain conscious.  Any roll of 9 or better and there's an additional HT roll to remain conscious.  Any roll of 11 or higher results in a death roll too.

Pistols suck, but being knocked unconscious by a bullet to the brain probably means you're going to die from bleeding if nobody renders first aid.

Would It Be Better If They Was Pushed Outta Windows?

Mr Fleetwood opines, "Would they be deader if I'd used 9mm?"

The battle of the BTR-152 was conducted with 230gr .45 ACP ball ammo.

It's illustrative that shot placement matters and he actually struck below the rim of the helmet and into the base of the skull where the spine enters.

Even a fucking .22 LR will get the job done if you put your shot there.

.45 is certainly more than .22; so therefore adequate.  That establishes a range of hole size and 9mm is firmly in the middle here.

They would, in fact, not be any more pregnant dead if hit with any other round.

The start of this discussion was from Ian laying snail tracks for the Laugo Alien.

Does that $8,000 9mm lob the bullet better than a $600 Hi-Power?  Or a Glock?  Or an M&P 9?  Or a S&W 59?

Or does it propel a 9x19mm round in pretty much exactly the same way, at the same velocity, with an accuracy that's more related to the skill of the shooter than the inherent accuracy of the design?

It's the same conundrum I am dealing with carrying the Model 59.

It doesn't lob a round farther or harder than a Glock 45.  Or Glock 17.  Or M&P 9.  Or Sigma.  Or High Power.  Or Beretta M9.  Or Beretta M1951.  Or S&W 39...

Etc...

It boils down to if you shoot it well and are comfortable carrying it.

You won't learn that reading about 2,000 round endurance tests.

You might not learn it attending at multi-kilobuck class.

You might learn to tolerate a gun that doesn't fit you, but after such a training seminar, you're going to feel like you HAVE to keep using it, whether you like your pistol or not.

BTR-152 Drill

Take three head sized targets.

Place them about 4 yards away and about two feet apart.

With one hand holding the table or lane divider, fire at each target in turn (order doesn't matter, but L to R is traditional).

Hits are hits, misses are misses, keep trying until you get three.

Combat tested, Willard approved practical skills test.

When you say, "damn, that's not very hard," well...  Sometimes it isn't very hard in the real world.