05 June 2015

AF2011A1 And GURPS




This is the double-barreled 1911!  It created something of a rules issue when I started to think about it when Erin posted her MongTrav stats.

In GURPS terms this thing fires a two-round high-cyclic bursts every time you pull the trigger (see High Tech 4e p. 82-82) and in game terms has no semi-automatic mode.

My Gods it's silly.  Like Erin, I can sure see the discerning player wanting one.  Why waste time on a Deagle when you can have THIS?

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6 comments:

  1. I did some looking on that a while ago for doubleguns in my various settings. Looking in High Tech: Pulp Guns 2 they've got the FIAT-Villar Perosa. Trying to determine what it did to recoil was the real thing, it seems that at least per the rules in that book, a twin-linked gun just gets an x2 mod to RoF, with whatever weight and cost increase is required to accommodate being two guns at once and no change in recoil stat.

    That said, by the rules of base High Tech, it qualifies as a high cyclic controlled burst as you said, which makes more sense and makes the gun actually kind of viable beyond maybe qualifying you for an extra +1 or +2 to hit, which usually isn't enough to justify the price increase.

    Double shotguns/SMGs/etc are also marginally less absurd to use than a double pistol, particularly a double pistol with magazines through the grip.

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    Replies
    1. I've seen a Villar Perosa firing. It's not even close to a high cyclic burst. It's two small automatic guns firing next to each other separately, and not particularly quickly.

      It's important to note that the burst rules state you lose sweeping fire, and a Villar Perosa most certainly can sweep.

      It's also important to note that if it could pull of the high-cyclic controlled burst thing, it'd have been actually more effective in real life, the rules as given with x2 RoF and no change to recoil simulate it about right.

      For double rifles... A technique to learn how to get the near simultaneous firing might work to get the Rcl 1 from HCCB. It'd work with shotguns too, but it'd be pointless for shot.

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    2. Well, 2 or 3 of the variants have linked triggers. The basic lmg wannabe version just can be two guns fired at once or one after another, but the one that actually uses smg skill and the weird chest rig one were set for both guns to fire simultaneously. They also specify that it's for guns with cyclic rates above 25 per second, which the Villar Perosa has (listed at 25 per barrel), if you could manage to fire short enough bursts to stop shooting before recoil had time to kick in. Perhaps high cyclic controlled bursts for semi auto, short bursts, or if there's a burst limiter, and full recoil if you try to just let it run wild? That seems like about what they describe for the g11 in the example, but that complicates things from a direct comparison because the full auto has a slightly lower cyclic rate.

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    3. I'm going to just say that it doesn't work the way you think it does and call it finished. You clearly WANT it to be better than it was or will ever be.

      The second C in HCCB is controlled. The Villar Perosa isn't. All eight guns firing from the wings on a Hurricane aren't. The tremendous volume from a Vulcan cannon isn't, despite the very high rate of fire.

      A super high rate of fire is not the only factor. It's the rounds landing almost on top of each other. Which all of the examples I just mentioned DO NOT DO. The AF 2011A1 actually does, and you could have knocked me over with a feather when it was demonstrated.

      A twin mount (or even quad) for a [insert machinegun here] more often than not has a single trigger firing all of the guns, and still doesn't behave like HCCB. It simply ups the rate of fire.

      The gigantic, mentioned it already, disqualifiers when there's a gigantic RoF number and "is the HCCB?" are: If I keep holding the trigger down, will the gun keep firing? Can I do sweeping fire?

      For the Villar Perosa, the answer to both questions is yes.

      HCCB is a LIMITED burst. You get to make up to three of the bursts per turn (High Tech 4e p. 83) that fire the indicated number of shots each. For a G11, that's three rounds per burst. For the AF2011 that's two.

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    4. I'm actually not that invested in it, I'm just trying to work out how the rules interact with themselves when they seem to disagree (even if that's my own issue of understanding them). It seems like the sort of question to ask to someone who's previously told me "Oh, right, I sometimes forget that not everyone has chatted with the actual writers for clarification of things, sorry about that", which would be you. I'm not even looking for specifically the Villar Perosa, just that it's a handy example I was trying to base rules on because it's the closest thing to a precedent that I've seen (Modern examples of double repeating guns being the AF2011A1, that one double AR-15, and the double pump shotgun that was floating around a while would work, except they aren't in the rules). All of the modern doubleguns have two separate triggers that pretend to be a single, firing both guns at the same or nearly the same time, seemingly constituting a HCCB when fired on semi-auto.

      I want to run settings with diverging guns. I want to run settings where the party can buy, or runs into NPCs who have bought, zany amalgamation guns like the AF2011A1. And I want those guns to work, ruleswise, in a logical and consistent manner, especially if there are applicable rules already that make house-rules unnecessary. I'm trying to figure out why I'm being told "well this gun uses X rule because it's two closely bolted together and fired simultaneously by a single trigger, where that one doesn't because it's two guns closely bolted together and fired simultaneously by a single trigger, which is totally different". I just want to find where/how the rules all interact so I can say "here you go player, here is your crazy supergun, and it behaves like THIS, according to rules on this page and that page".

      What I was trying to get at and probably failed to do so properly in my previous reply was; Would a Villar Perosa, being two guns in one in much the same way as the various double rifles/shotguns/pistols, with linked triggers to fire simultaneously while set on semi-auto, constitute a high cyclic controlled burst? Would a short burst (with a burst limiter if required), from both guns that are so closely linked, fired simultaneously, and both meet the requirements for HCCB in terms of cyclic rate, still be an HCCB? Would a single gun with very high fire rate as listed (25+) and a burst limiter, qualify as an HCCB (that I can find, the only guns listed in High Tech to have it are the VP70 and G11, and they don't list an unmodified cyclic rate to compare were the gun just allowed to run flat-out)? When does a gun that qualifies for HCCB stop counting as such?


      There was going to be a grump note here about the manner of your response rather than the content, but it'd be pointlessly passive aggressive and probably is just a case of text removing context from what is said and making it come off as nastier than it was meant, etc, so it has been removed.

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    5. Can it do sweeping fire? If yes, then it is not and cannot be HCCB regardless of the RoF.
      HCCB is a special form of limited burst. Are the bursts limited? If not, then it's not HCCB.

      My tone is because I feel like I keep repeating those two lines and keep getting the Villar Perosa as an example of a gun that should be HCCB when it fails both of those tests.

      The next thing about HCCB that's not in the rules but really needs mentioned is all the rounds are gone before the recoil impulse can affect the shooter, that's why this is associated with limited bursts and not merely a super high RoF. Again the stupid pistol does it and twin mounted SMG's don't.

      You seem to be trying to back the rules into a gun when the rules fall the other direction.

      So far in the real world, and High Tech is real world limited, there aren't that many examples that qualify. The G11 pioneered the concept. If you let it run at its full rate (it'd be RoF 36) for more than about five rounds it's going to eat itself. That's why the RoF is retarded and we have a 9#/7 for it. Each burst is limited to three rounds, and you can make three limited bursts per turn, so 9. The high RoF, coupled with the recoil system for the bursts adds the #.

      An M16A2 should have a RoF of 9/- since it has limited bursts and no automatic capability; plus a slow cyclic rate.

      You may note: " It created something of a rules issue when I started to think about it..." HCCB is the only rule that expresses the expenditure of ammunition the way the AF2011 uses it. It fires two shots for every pull of the trigger. Hey, that's a limited burst! It fires them near simultaneously, closer together than even the G11. That sure seems to make it HCCB to me. Also of note is the thing doesn't work with just one half loaded, the springs are too heavy, it fires the round in the chamber then fails to cycle.

      The Villar Perosa is literally two separate guns bolted to a board. If two rounds are leaving at the same time, it's a coincidence. It is in no way firing a limited burst. So if it's not limited, it cannot be HCCB. Full stop. You really need to find one firing and see how uncoordinated the two guns are and all of my ranting should become clearer. It's no more a single gun than any other twin mount with a link and using the normal rules for it works correctly.

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