20 January 2024

Imperfect

If you're going to advocate for GURPS, you need to say, "Hi, my name is Angus, and GURPS once sucked."

1e and 2e are very similar and they aren't very good.

The promise of a better system is there, but it's not realized.

In 2e you could make, almost, anything you could imagine but didn't quite have the tools to convert a different imagining to GURPS.

This was, mostly, fine for me because I've made up everything from whole cloth a bunch of times.

But play was clunky.  There were obvious gaps where should be rules.  There were even a few places where there were rules when there should be gaps!

3e went a long way towards fixing things and realizing the promise of the original game.

But things started to... bloat... from there.

Every world book and supplement had additional rules.  Rules which were often contradicted by another world book or supplement.

It took major work to keep them sorted out.  Squabbles occurred when someone would prefer the solution from one supplement and someone else preferred a different solution.  Both being published and official rules for the game we were playing right this second.

3e (revised) plus the two Compendium books consolidated most of those extra rules and eliminated almost all of the contradictions.

Once characters were made, 3e and 3eR play very smoothly.

But there were still strange things.  If you wanted to fly like Superman, the last place you'd start is by buying "Flight".  You wanted to custom make a flight like power out of telekinesis.  It was a LOT cheaper.

The similar Hero system had something like this too.  There, if you wanted to move quickly clinging to the wall like Spiderman, you didn't buy clinging; you bought flight with the limitation, "must touch surface".

4e consolidated things again.  Some of the optional rules from the compendium became core rules but the real change was the advantages becoming effect driven rather than process driven.

Flying is now flight, regardless of HOW you fly with some modifications to account for how.  Flight is flight now.

Hi, my name is Angus and character creation in GURPS has always sucked.

It's not difficult.  It's cumbersome.

It's cumbersome because there are so many choices to make.

There are many choices because there's a lot of detail.

The good news is, once the choices are made, the actual play is simple.

The bad news is a player new to GURPS is going to be needing a lot of hand-holding to make a character that can do everything they're expecting their character to do.

Worse, a player new to the very idea of role playing won't even know what they're expecting of their character and will completely miss essential skills and advantages while crippling themselves with disadvantages.

4e's character templates help a great deal here, but there's still a lot of choosing to do.

Class based games, like D&D, shine at character creation because most of the choices are pre-made for the player and the class also informs the player what their role in the party will be.

Admitting this is the first step to recovery.

10 comments:

  1. I didn't mean to offend you, Angus. You have a lot invested in GURPS,.

    Sorry it's not something me and my friends here in the frozen north play. We play the old games we played to keep our sanity waiting in the Sandbox for something to happen.

    Michael

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    1. Less offended than tired of a pattern that keeps repeating.

      I have a lot invested in gaming, not just GURPS.

      But I so rarely hear about how bad the rules for Traveller are, other than the dying during character creation. LBB Traveller rules are atrocious. The setting is wonderful! MegaTraveller got better rules, but broke the setting. Mongoose is kind of a LBB rules 2.5e. We will not discuss the unholy tome that is Traveller 5e.

      AD&D had God awful rules. You almost had to do a home-brew-by-omission to play it, and so many of us did. AD&D 2e cleaned up the mess a great deal. You'd have to ask Fuzzygeff about 3rd, 4th and 5th editions; but he says he really liked 4th as a fantasy tailored rule set.

      Twilight: 2000 is another game from GDW with a great setting and mediocre rule set. It was very advanced in its day, but had some strange flaws. The draw cards for motivation was neat, but obtuse. The combat system was clean and simple, but had some odd decisions about ammunition.

      Some of my GURPS exclusivity is from being the only person willing to be the GM for a very long time, to the point that there are people who resent my existence 26 years later for allowing their character to do something that got them killed.

      Delete
    2. Did I mention a pattern? https://mcthag.blogspot.com/2015/08/youve-never-even-tried-to-play.html

      Delete
  2. Had only a brief run into GURPS... I remember it being "OK" if complicated. The groups I played with started in D&D but then moved to Hero System for... Well, a long time. Shadowrun was popular for a time as well... I remember the system being fairly terrible so a lot fell on the GM to make it work/make it up... Worked for our group, but that was just the group generally getting along and just wanting to play a game. But then we all grew up and left that college town so...

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    1. Shadowrun! I liked the setting a lot, but the system was... It was hard to tell what I needed to actually succeed with what I was trying to do. We had a good GM who seemed to Grok the rules and told us what to roll and when. But I was never confident I was good at being a street samurai from looking at my character sheet.

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    2. That same GM converted it to GURPS 3eR when GURPS: Cyberpunk came out.

      I think it underscores that it's the GM and not the game that makes the play fun, we had fun with both rule sets, it was just more understandable with GURPS than the original rules.

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    3. Angus, your comment "I think it underscores that it's the GM and not the game that makes the play fun, we had fun with both rule sets"

      is the essence of what I tried to say when its story centered Fantasy Role Playing. Our old fogie FRP group shares the same world as we have mandatory GM rotation.

      As terrible the old rules are, so what? We decided how to add swords to Traveller. In general, if it became too popular as a weapons system, we looked back into it as Players always seek out the most successful weapons. That can get boring.

      BTW I'm not the only member of my FRP group reading your GURPS comments.

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    4. Swords are stock items in LBB Traveller, you shouldn't have had to add them. My favorite LBB melee weapon is The Blade. A large knife with a full-on cutlass basket hilt amuses me to no end.

      You're going to be getting knee jerk responses from time to time, sorry. Nothing in my rants should be taken to mean that you're not allowed to use, or have fun, with older or different rule sets than I prefer.

      But too many people have been up my ass for liking GURPS that even my most level headed attempt to answer questions comes off as abrasive. Especially when so many of those "innocent" questions have been attempts to trick me into showing that their system is better. So when I get asked to compare a bow with a musket, I give rather complete comparisons. That way when they show how they tricked me, they have everything required.

      We had fun running LBB Traveller, shitty rules and all. We had fun running home-brew GURPS: Traveller; official SJGames GURPS: Traveller and Traveller: Interstellar Wars.

      Because I'm a good Traveller GM. Most of the time.

      I did not have fun with Mongoose Traveller because they really needed someone to find all the errors. And there were mountains. It's not a bad design, it's poorly made. Erin at Lurking Rhythmically can detail some of it from her group.

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  3. In some ways, WFRP Second Edition fixed a few problems with First Edition, but to my mind, it also made things a lot worse, mostly in the sacred name of keeping it compatible with GW's miniatures rules. If I were GMing WFRP, I'd want to use a lot of the new careers from Second Edition, but the magic rules from First Edition. Forbidding dwarfs and halflings from being magical strikes me as stupid, and I've never been able to make sense of the "winds of magic" thing.

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  4. I played GURPS 3E back in the 80s. I liked the system. straightforward, simple, and not weighed down by clunky character classes of other RPGs. But ever since after high school, I've got no one to play with, so solitaire tabletop wargames are my thing. -JKing

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